ALTOONA, Pa. -- Only one Pirates manager in the 37 years since Chuck Tanner left has had a winning record in Pittsburgh. And no, it wasn't Jim Leyland, who compiled a record of 851-863 from 1986-96.
Clint Hurdle is the answer to the note posted above. His record in nine seasons from 2011-19 was 735-720.
Be honest, even if you did know the obvious that Hurdle led the Buccos to three straight playoff appearances, did you realize he actually produced a winning record over his entire tenure?
It came as a bit of a surprise to me when I looked up the numbers this past week, prior to doing a Memory Lane podcast interview with Hurdle. I mean, I knew about the playoff appearances from 2013-15 and actually covered all those home games at PNC Park, but it had indeed escaped my attention that Hurdle's record was that good for his entire run in Pittsburgh.
Here's a look at records of Pirates managers over the last 45 years. May want to cover your eyes:
* Chuck Tanner (1977-85): 711-685
* Jim Leyland (1986-96): 851-863
* Gene Lamont (1997-2000): 295-352
* Lloyd McClendon (2001-05): 336-446
* Pete Mackanin (2005): 12-14
* Jim Tracy (2006-07): 135-189
* John Russell (2008-10): 186-299
* Clint Hurdle (2011-19): 735-720
* Derek Shelton (2020-present): 105-181
OK, so let's present all this in a different way:
Do you think there will EVER be another Pirates manager to have a winning record over a long period of time, say at least seven or eight years?
The guess here is no. And if you think I'm just being too negative, you've got to consider all the factors that go into play with regards to having a sustained level of success with the Pirates.
All of this is my way of saying that, if you didn't fully appreciate what Hurdle did with the Pirates, well, you should. Because to put it lightly, it was impressive, and to be incredibly blunt, history may end up revealing that what Hurdle pulled off was some sort of minor miracle.
Hurdle shared a lot of great stuff during this week's Memory Lane podcast, which can be found below, and I've pulled some important excerpts here.
"I told people when I was on the job, and I tell people since since I've been removed from the job, it was one of the best experiences of my life getting to be the manager in Pittsburgh," said Hurdle, who's making a speaking appearance at Sunday's Altoona Curve game.
It's no secret to any Pirates fan that the team was terrible for a long time, losing for 18 consecutive seasons before Hurdle was hired to replace John Russell after the 2010 season. Hurdle had losing records his first two seasons, including blowing a 67-54 cushion in 2012 before finishing 79-83, then helped the franchise turn everything around in 2013 with a 94-68 record.
The Buccos, of course, earned a spot in the NL Wild Card Game and beat the Cincinnati Reds on that magical October night at PNC Park. Then they lost to the Cardinals in the NL Divisional Series.
"It would be the blackout game," Hurdle said of his favorite Pirates memory. "We never made it to the World Series. That was one of our goals. We gave it everything we had. I gave it everything. And we came up short there. And the nine years I was there, the three straight years of playoff runs were significant. They were special."
Wild Card appearances followed in 2014 and '15, with the Pirates going 88-74 and then 98-64. Unfortunately, the Bucs lost both of those Wild Card Games.
One thing that really has to stink for Pirates fans is what happened following the 2015 season. After winning 98 games, the franchise was in prime position to keep the strong run going, but needed management to make some good moves to help hold off other teams in the NL Central, including the up-and-coming Cubs.
The major offseason move in 2015 was trading Neil Walker to the Mets for pitcher Jon Niese. That was it. THAT was the move management made, thinking it could help the Pirates continue their playoff run.
It was as bogus as it gets. Laughable, even.
The Pirates dipped to 78-83 in 2016, and the writing was on the wall that the front office was not willing or capable to be bold or think outside the box to help sustain the strong run.
I asked Hurdle if he thought enough was done in that 2015 offseason to bolster the team.
"Well, that's a great question, and I think there's gonna be people that are gonna say no," he said. "I was in all those rooms, I was in all those conversations. And the one thing I've learned over time, you share your thoughts and conversations with the people that can do something about it. At the end of the day, we were 98 wins, we felt that it was a pivotal point in time, and we were so close to busting loose.
"Decisions were made that were made, and there comes a point in time where ... you're actually supposed to do the best you can with what you have. I'm not going to go public and lie, and I'm not going to go public in fear. We were all in those things, we locked arms and figured this is the way we gotta go. And that's the way we had to go, and it didn't work out. We weren't able to recover in 2016. We faltered in '17. We had a nice bounce back in '18. And then '19, the first half was solid, we were fighting, and it fell apart on us in the second half.
"So, it is a challenge in that type of market. You can't throw money at things. You don't have much room for error. And we did it very, very well for the three-year period that we were there. So, I look back, it is what it is, and I'll leave those opinions up to other people whether it was enough or not."
The Pirates did finish above .500 in 2018, going 82-79, but fell apart in 2019 with a 69-93 mark. Hurdle was fired before the final game of that season.
So, let's go back and consider my question from the beginning of this column: Do you think there will EVER be another Pirates manager to have a winning record over a long period of time, say at least seven or eight years?
The bottom line with the Pirates is that they'll probably always be playing for an occasional window of opportunity -- a very small window, too, of maybe 2-3 years, if that. If everything goes well with a GM's rebuilding plan -- such as the one Ben Cherington is currently working on -- it's certainly conceivable to think that the Bucs could make the playoffs once or twice over a 10-12 year period.
Sustaining a solid run, though, would take a lot -- namely money. Because if the Pirates are good enough to be a playoff team for a couple of years at any point, the reality is that it will be with young players under contractual control. And when those players' contracts are running out, there will still be every reason to believe that those players would be traded for younger prospects, thereby starting the rebuilding process over once again.
As that relates to managers, I think it's safe to assume that any manager would have to go through a few really lean years, with a whole bunch of losses, just to hopefully have the opportunity of 2-3 good years with strong records and playoff hopes. But then after that 2-3 years, there likely would be another substantial dropoff. Case in point, current manager Derek Shelton is already 76 games under .500 in his third season, so he's got a huge mountain to climb.
Put all that together, and it's gonna be tough for a Pirates manager to have an overall winning record after a 7-8 year period or longer. Because even if there are some highs, there surely will be as many or more lows that crush the overall record.
Shoot, even Leyland dealt with that after leading the Pirates to three straight division titles from 1990-92. He had a great record after all that, but he stayed on four more seasons and saw his record collapse with the start of the 20-year losing streak.
Post your thoughts about my managerial record question in the comments section. And hopefully you'll enjoy the Hurdle podcast below.
As you're listening to it, do as I did and ponder what Hurdle's legacy will be in 20 or 30 years, when perhaps he may still have been the last Pirates manager to have any kind of decent run of postseason appearances.
