"I've got Sidney Crosby. I've got Evgeni Malkin."
This was Jim Rutherford. It was early Tuesday afternoon, and we were talking by phone. Just me and him. Just like we've always done all through his tenure after one of his major trades.
So, yeah, it's a regular occurrence.
"When you've got those guys and Kris Letang," he kept going, "you don't just wait for two or three years to get help through the draft. You can't do that. You'd have to be ..."
He didn't complete the thought. But I did.
Crazy.
Or stupid.
Or both.
"Whatever you'd want to call it, we've got these guys here now," he concluded, "and we're going to do everything we can to get younger around them to help them. Maybe that'll cost us down the road. In fact, I'm sure it will. But when you've got a group like this ..."
He didn't complete that thought, either. But I will, and I'll do it right here: You've got to keep trying. Every year.
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And so, Rutherford keeps trying.
On this day, he'd reacquire Kasperi Kapanen from the Maple Leafs as part of a seven-component trade that sent the Penguins' No. 15 overall pick in the coming NHL Draft, as well as forwards Evan Rodrigues and Filip Hallander and defenseman David Warsofsky, to Toronto for Kapanen, defense prospect Jesper Lindgren and forward Pontus Aberg.
But it might sound more complicated than it really was. It's basically Kapanen for a first-rounder.
Rodrigues wasn't good enough to crack the Penguins' current lineup. Hallander's a promising prospect, but he's always been projected internally to be more of a two-way type. Warsofsky's an AHL spare part. Lindgren weighs 176 pounds and, by Rutherford's stark assessment, "needs to get a lot stronger" to have a future. And Aberg's a 27-year-old underachiever who's signed for the coming winter with Russia's Kontinental Hockey League.
To repeat, then: Kapanen for a first-rounder.
And to condense that further, a young, fast, skilled and inexpensive top-six winger for a first-rounder that, again in Rutherford's words, "couldn't help us for another two, three years, probably."
That's it. That's the extent of the exchange, certainly from the Pittsburgh perspective.
If the Maple Leafs emerge triumphant in this trade -- and predictably, given hockey's most hyperventilating, histrionic fan base, they were declared exactly that within milliseconds of the paperwork being filed -- it'll be because they choose wisely with the No. 15 overall selection, not because Rodrigues and/or Hallander solidify their bottom six.
And similarly, if the Penguins emerge triumphant, as history will powerfully illustrate they did following the previous trade with Toronto involving Kapanen, it'll be because Kapanen brought what they've long lacked in their top six.
Meaning, of course, this sort of thing from the right side:
That's all 13 goals from the 69 games he played in the 2019-20 regular season and, if you sat through them, there's a sampling of superlative speed -- "Faster than Bryan Rust," as Rutherford told me -- on a sturdy 6-1, 192-pound frame, as well as a lightning-release wrister, a hard slap shot when taken, a soft touch in tight, and a fearlessness about the front of the net.
He doesn't have the game's greatest vision or general on-ice awareness, but he'll make the plays he sees.
He'll also still be everything we'd recall from him off the ice:
“I was super excited,” Kapanen spoke on the team's conference call Tuesday. “It’s where it all began for me, which is pretty cool. I’m grateful that Jimmy and Mike Sullivan want me to go there. It’s been an exciting day.”
To remind: He's 24. He did take a little longer to reach Toronto than had been expected, but he popped 20 goals two seasons ago, 41 in 202 NHL games, with a career shooting percentage of 10.9.
Which is to say, he's pretty much what Rutherford and the Penguins had hoped the first time they invested a first-round pick in him, back in 2014.
"A really good hockey player," Rutherford told me. "There isn't much he can't do out there."
That sentiment hasn't changed. The first hockey column I wrote for this venture was about Kapanen, off his development camp debut, and included Bill Guerin predicting, "He's going to be special," and Eddie Johnston observing, "It’s all natural. Some have it. Some don’t. He’s got a ton of it.” And Rutherford glowed all the more back then. He loved the kid. He'd employed his dad, Sami, with the Hurricanes, and believed in the bloodlines almost as much as what he was witnessing.
In another of those talks he and I have after a major trade, Rutherford couldn't conceal how much he hated sending out Kapanen for Phil Kessel, even with as much as he felt -- brilliantly, as it turned out -- Kessel could provide a championship piece.
So, why didn't Kapanen ever fully break through in Toronto?
My lazy answer would be that very few players do, regardless of talent. Anyone who rises above being ... say, decent is instantly, irrationally elevated to borderline iconic status, whether they're just another nobody like Nikolai Antropov or they're a gifted but grossly overpaid youngster like Mitch Marner making $16 million a year. And anyone who doesn't rise above, shy of the generational Borje Salming or Mats Sundin or Auston Matthews who comes along, becomes buried in a media/public mudslide.
There's no place like it. And it's a principal reason the franchise remains the most miserable in professional sports, not having reached a Stanley Cup Final since 1967, the last year the league still had only six teams.
My non-lazy answer is that Kapanen became buried in a different way.
He averaged 12:33 of five-on-five ice time, a distant seventh among Toronto's forwards, seldom saw first-line duty and was almost never on the top power play. Say what one will about failing to earn such status, but that wasn't about to get any easier on a right wing depth chart behind Marner and William Nylander, to whom the Maple Leafs have committed a combined $110 million over the next six years.
"We feel like, in Pittsburgh, Kasperi will get that chance," Rutherford told me before making clear it'll ultimately be Sullivan’s call as to which of the top two lines. "If he's with Sid or Geno, we can figure that out with where Rusty will go. And we'll have a lot of speed with Jake Guentzel and Jason Zucker up there, too. A lot of speed."
He's right. And what he didn't say, so I'll go ahead and say it for him: It won't just be about compatibility anymore. Meaning that keeping Conor Sheary or Dominik Simon alongside Crosby, primarily to sustain possession as opposed to scoring, won't be necessary. If Kapanen, Guentzel, Rust and Zucker do their parts ...
"That's a solid, fast top six," was how Rutherford put it. "If those guys perform as we'd expect, a lot of things will improve for our hockey team."
OK, but did he overpay?
Objectively, I'll bet he did. I'll bet that, once it's assessed purely from the standpoint of the trade itself, the Leafs will have wound up with more to show for it.
Will he care?
That's the more pertinent question.
Remember, Rutherford heard all kinds of howls for shipping out Kapanen in the first place, for repeatedly mortgaging the future, for giving up too much for a player who'd become persona non grata with most people in Toronto. But he explained at the time, and he'd repeat after other trades that his goal isn't winning the trade ... it's winning the Cup. As such, he sets his sights on a target, then does what it takes to acquire it.
That approach won't always work. See Derick Brassard, Jack Johnson and other examples. But see also Kessel, Patric Hornqvist and, most recently, Brandon Tanev.
Other teams were in on Kapanen, per reports late Tuesday out of Toronto, so the Penguins were hardly alone. It's no breeze finding a young, sharp-shooting forward with pedigree at a relatively low cost, and other GMs were standing in the same line as Rutherford. So he offered more than the rest and got it done.
"I'm feeling good about this," Rutherford told me. "I am."
That's who he is. That's also why, largely, the Penguins are who they are.
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He most definitely isn't done, but that's about as far as our conversation was going to carry.
"We've got work to do," he'd say, "including with the cap."
The Penguins are budgeting to spend up to the NHL's $81.5 million cap. Mario Lemieux and Ron Burkle always do. So Rutherford's reference is trying to get back under it. Kapanen adds a $3.2 million cap hit the next two seasons, after which he can be a restricted free agent. That's another aspect of the acquisition Rutherford liked. That's four years of team control of a young player, as well as ample time to weigh a longer-term extension.
But his cost means there's more to come:
• Matt Murray's a restricted free agent, of course, and Rutherford's already let it out that the Penguins can't keep both Murray and Tristan Jarry. Murray absolutely will be the one to go, and the Kapanen addition cements that further. But the market for available goaltending includes Braden Holtby and a bunch of others, so it won't be a snap.
• Hornqvist's cap hit is $5.3 million each of the next three seasons, and he's got a no-trade clause, so there'll be the uncomfortable circumstance of having one of the team's highest-paid players relegated to the bottom six. Not sure what Rutherford might consider doing on this front -- his respect for Hornqvist knows no bounds -- but it's worth mentioning.
• Other moves will be routine: Sheary, Justin Schultz and Patrick Marleau will be unrestricted and allowed to walk. There might be a surprise or two in the restricted category, as well, notably with Jared McCann. And it's possible Nick Bjugstad will be bought out.
The bottom line, though, won't be the bottom line. That's going to be getting younger, fresher, faster.
As I wrote immediately after the playoff loss to the Canadiens, it's possible without some mega-rebuild. We've seen that with the wonderful discovery of John Marino, the recent signing of another standout collegiate defenseman in Arizona State's Josh Maniscalco and, before that, stealing Marcus Pettersson from the Ducks.
From there, it's incumbent on Sullivan to send that youth over the boards. Play Sam Lafferty. Play Anthony Angello. Play Pierre-Olivier Joseph. Get Samuel Poulin up here and play him, too. He's got nothing left to show in Quebec.
It's hardly impossible.
"I'd agree with that," Rutherford replied when I broached that. "We're always looking for that type of player, and we'll continue to do that."
Heck, the hardest part's already in place, right?