The way I see it, and the way I expressed it to both Bob Nutting and Travis Williams on this extraordinary Monday inside 115 Federal, there are two distinct, highly divergent paths they can take toward turning the Pirates into contenders:
1. Rebuild.
2. Spend big on starting pitching.
Yeah, we talked a little baseball. Imagine that. I'll bet there was a whole bunch of that sort of thing happening all over the city for the first time in far too long. And with it, a little relief. Maybe even a little belief.
Fun, isn't it?
Breathe, Pittsburgh. The baseball club isn't anywhere near all the way back, but it's a lot closer than it's been in far, far too long.
As Nutting himself told me on the day he made known his firing of Neal Huntington, "Today is an enormous step forward down that path." He instantly added, "And we're not there yet," but he was nonetheless right on both points. Nothing was going to change until there was real change, and this was the vital beginning.
Anyway, Nutting and Williams met with our staff -- Alex Stumpf, Matt Sunday and me -- in one of several segmented media sessions inside 115 Federal. Jim Lachimia, a longtime independent features writer was in the room with us. This is the full transcript. It lasted nearly an hour, and it felt as candid and refreshing as any experience I've had with anyone at any level of the Pirates in years.
My focus was primarily on the future, on the next step. That wasn't going to be an easy egg to crack, given that there's no GM, no manager, no pitching coach and, thus, virtually no chance that anyone had ginned up a serious baseball philosophy. At the same time, it felt like the most pertinent thing all concerned will need to address over the coming offseason, beyond finding the right people to execute it.
So I tried. I mentioned to Nutting that it struck me that there were really two routes he could take and that each, in its own way, would require some boldness. He'd get annihilated for a rebuild of any length. On the other, he'd have to really push payroll beyond his previous comfort level. And I added that sitting in the middle was generally nowhere-ville in baseball.
"I think that final comment is maybe the most helpful," Nutting began. "Whether it’s a middle path of trying to bring in players who are pretty good ... "
He emphasized the term 'pretty good' in a disdainful way, hence the italics here. I instantly thought to Huntington's final two trade debacles, but I can't know if that's what Nutting was referencing.
" ... or whether a middle path is not making a firm commitment to a strategy or a plan. We need to pick a lane. We need to pick a lane, move forward full speed ahead. I think that, as usual, you are identifying exactly the right issues, and you and I both will look forward to Travis’ answers."
Hm.
Reading anything into that, other than Nutting incorrectly stating that I'm right even half the time about anything?
Maybe it's safest not to take it too far, but I'll share this thought: I couldn't help but notice that Nutting lit up at my mentions of Bell, Reynolds and Newman, who are precisely the type of players -- particularly Bell -- who get shipped out in some massive rebuild. There's a perception, I think, that it's just the Starling Marte-types, and that's incorrect. It's the highest-valued proven, young assets.
I'll share this, as well: Nutting and Williams -- both, but particularly the former -- spoke of 'reallocating dollars' within the company. I'll get into what that means in detail below, but the gist in this context was a push from the minors — where the Pirates actually have been grossly over-spending, if you can believe it — into the major-league payroll.
Finally, on this, I'll share that Nutting was as spirited, as animated as I'd ever seen him. And as patient and methodical as he can be, I honestly don't believe he's inclined to tear it all down and take another 2-3 years of bullets for it.
Put it this way: He's not a good actor. This whole thing wasn't some staged charade. He's a deeply private man, to the point he bristled when a media relations official asked him to share with us that the background on his phone is a picture of Williams and his children surrounding the Stanley Cup. And when he finally relented and showed us the phone, Nutting, looking a little emotional, said, "When Travis gets one of those with his children around the World Series trophy, that'll be my next homescreen."
Bob Nutting shows his phone's homescreen. - MATT SUNDAY / DKPSI wouldn't bet on some seismic payroll shift in 2020, in large part because the current composition of the roster really doesn't call for it. If Marte does get traded, and given the loss of Felipe Vazquez and other big contracts, the Pirates would be operating from a base of about $40 million with an already young group. There's only so much anyone reasonably would pour into that.
At the same time, I'm not feeling some grand Marlins-style teardown. Think in the other direction.
• It was a great day for baseball in Pittsburgh. Really was.
• The players are, um, ecstatic. I'll leave it there.
• Not going to lie: I was immediately impressed. With both men. With the collective thoughts exchanged.
I've known both separately for years, but I was surprised to learn Nutting and Williams had known each other as well as they had, never mind that the two often hooked up at Penguins games and that Nutting had hoped for years to have Williams work for the Pirates. But it showed right away. There was a palpable chemistry, none of the stilted, lawyer-like awkwardness that accompanied everything about Frank Coonelly. It felt like two friends ready to "take on a big challenge," as Williams worded it.
More than anything, I was impressed by this from Williams in describing his reaction to Nutting's initial call.
"Do you want to win?"
I cut Williams off, asking if he meant it as him or Nutting asking that.
"No, it was me. I asked him if he wanted to win. He said yes."
Williams then asked about potential resources, about picking his people, about a solid support system and, yeah, about payroll. All of that brought the same affirmation. Even as this was being retold, Nutting sat there and nodded enthusiastically.
That's the Williams I know from his time with a championship outfit across the river. If I haven't already written this a million times, you're going to like him. He's as Pittsburgh as it gets.
• It took about two seconds, it seems, for the joy about local baseball fans to turn to ultimatums about payroll. As in, if Nutting doesn't spend X amount, then this is all bunk.
One of these days, maybe, this will be the domain of the casual fan as opposed to the knowledgeable one, but payroll isn't everything. Moreover, some of the most successful franchises in recent years -- not least of whom are the Astros -- built up by beginning with a lower payroll, then saving funds for when the team became a bona fide contender.
One could argue that among Nutting's greatest shortcomings to date is that he's never tried that, instead allowing Coonelly and Huntington to kick the mediocrity can further down the road in a bid to preserve their jobs.
Of course, one also could argue that Nutting's most irresponsible act as owner was to not apply extra funds to the payroll following the 98-win season in 2015.
• All that I'm applauding is the foundation being set. Visibly being set. What Nutting, Williams and their incoming hires do with it will determine anything further. Much is to be proven. Obviously.
• By firing Huntington ($2 million salary) and Hurdle ($3.1 million salary) on guaranteed contracts with two years left on each, Nutting's eaten $11.4 million on those two, plus Kyle Stark ($500,000 salary). And it might be more if Coonelly also had guaranteed money or a buyout, which I'll bet he did.
• What in hell was Stark getting $500,000 to do?
• He's gone, too, by the way. Don't expect an announcement. When the GM goes, almost everyone goes.
• Kevan Graves, Huntington's other assistant GM who's now holding the interim role, is respected throughout the industry and will do well to keep the business running.
• My top choices for new GM would be, in no order, Marc DelPiano, Tony LaCava and Mike Berger. Those aren't predictions. They're preferences. All three are good men, all three are passionate about Pittsburgh and the Pirates and, infinitely more important, all three are excellent baseball evaluators with experience at every level of the game.
DelPiano might be the one who stands out. He now scouts the majors for the Yankees, as he did for the Pirates earlier in the decade when his recommendations to acquire A.J. Burnett, Russell Martin and Jason Grilli played a huge role in the three playoff appearances in 2013-15.
• Nutting took exception to frequently repeated public remarks about the cash he's reaping from ownership. And, unpopular as this stance might be, he should.
Here's a common one: He's a billionaire and the 10th-richest owner in Major League Baseball. As I've written for years, this was culled -- completely incorrectly -- from a New York Times article four years ago. Which isn't to say the Times was wrong, but the way it was read was wrong, making it all the crazier that it's stuck for all this time.
Here's another: The Pirates are making a bazillion dollars, and the owner's drawing out a bazillion dollars in profit. Neither is true, as I've had some information shared that they've been hit a lot harder by the lack of local revenues in recent years than what anyone, myself included, had known. Ideally, there'll be more transparency on this to come, as Nutting suggested to me that there will be once he and Williams figure out a way to present it. As for the profit part, even the minority owners who don't hit it off with Nutting will attest he hasn't withdrawn money from the company, and they'd be required to know.
"We need to rebuild the faith and trust because I know it’s not an accurate narrative," Nutting told me. "I know that the economic circumstances of baseball really are creating some limitations for us. But I also believe that we are investing not effectively enough. What we need to do is be more effective in draft, more effective in development, make sure we continue the development at the major-league level. There are other teams in similar markets that have continued to show success, and we showed success in '13, '14 and '15. We're never going to use it as an excuse, but we have to be more transparent, we have to be more open, and we have to convince ourselves and our fans and you how much we care about moving this forward."
That's good stuff. Worth a careful read and sharing.
Look, Nutting's still doing spectacularly well for himself in owning the Pirates. The franchise value is likely five times what it was when he took control in 2007, so the payoff someday will be colossal. But that doesn't make it fair to fabricate or exaggerate other elements.
• On one hand, both spoke of never wanting to use payroll, revenue or market size as an excuse for performance. On the other, they, but especially Nutting, spoke of the 'economic inequality' that exists in the majors. And man, is that overdue.
As I mentioned directly to Nutting, it's always felt as if he and Coonelly fell in line with anything Bud Selig and Rob Manfred wanted. He made clear he wouldn't be sharing what he does or speaks behind closed doors in those talks, but this was the first time he'd ever even acknowledged such a position in public.
Really, both discussions can be had, about the market size and about the inequity. The first can't be an excuse, but the second still needs to be addressed. The Pirates need to spend up to their means, provided they can get people to believe they're doing that, but they also need to finally start taking a front-and-center role in labor talks once those get going next year.
• Ever since mid-August in Anaheim, I began every single column about the Pirates with the same two words: 'Fire everybody.' Which is precisely what Nutting wound up doing. That was my stance then, and it's my stance now. Don't be taken aback by any of it. He did the right thing, and he's deserving of a reprieve, if not an outright reversal.
MATT SUNDAY GALLERY
Bob Nutting, Travis Williams meet with DKPittsburghSports.com, PNC Park, Oct. 28, 2019 -- MATT SUNDAY / DKPS